[seedig] Letter to SEEDIG community

Sat Jan 18 18:48:42 CET 2020

Resending due to delivery failure notice...

Dear Dusan,

Calling upon the ToR brought us where we are ... in my opinion the ToR should have been only an elementary guideline for the Exe Com , until the legal entity is established , it is correct that the necessity for LE was acknowledged some years w and the WG was formed but again im my perspective it didn’t produce anything out of sevey reasons, Lack of will to work on a complex document , first dispute was the jurisdiction and again my personal perception, a single ( practicing lawyer ) cannot  swim in an aquarium where the most and biggest fish are engineers, linguists, NGO high ranked officers... we simply don’t speak the same language ... would you accept me to write computer program with you... ? There are good examples, practices, we have legal entity IGF Italy, EuroDIG statute , we do not need to invent hot water now .. of course there are specifics but im sure lawyers from within the community can address these with the help of the most experienced members, exe com members willing to advice and suggest.... 
So in legal/ lawyers terminology, I have  “ nothing further to add “. The defense or prosecution rests- depends how  you want to see me as Im defending or accusing someone!  If you ask me, none of the two... Probably this threads will end up just a wishful thinking that SEEDIG can start a new chapter with general elections as an act of reconciliation  and letting the new organization structure to continue without leftovers or tails ... 
Best regards from Skopje 
AI 

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Saturday, January 18, 2020, 18:05, Dušan Stojičević <dusan at dukes.in.rs> wrote:

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Thanks, Aleksandar!

Of course, You may disagree with me, and that’s exactly your right, same as  I disagree with your approach. Still, I am trying to talk and discuss topics that you bring, and I am happy that you see that, as some of others don’t. 

Here we have too many feelings, and too many blurred facts which tends to fool everyone. At the same time, we do need to find a solution for some problems.

But, let us find a common ground – us two, we are stuck in the position what is the problem.

1.      I see the problem in what I wrote many times on the list and sublimated in petition.

2.      You see the problem written in Caf’s blogs

When you decide what is the problem, and for me - both are (facts in the petition, and fake facts in the blogs), then we can try to solve it.

You can repeat your solutions as many times you want, correct it and adapt it, but – without definition of problems, there is no solution.

And clearly, when you are writing emails with personally colored (not so exact) facts, then – you bring more fog than solutions. That’s why fact checking is necessary. 

Anyway, my views are not close to yours, simply because I cannot agree with you on the problems: 

F.E. You don’t see the problem in delayed financial reporting, but you want proofs about managing the funds – which no one said it was a problem. 

Or, for example – I don’t see any problem with Task Force, WG or call it however you want, formed in the time when exe com was with all members and in full mandate. This whole story is based on fake claim that this is historical problem, which I explained through the facts – it’s not. It’s already once decided, it was hard decision to make - I agree, but we were able to do it and this community supported it. I don’t see any problem in this Task force to solve that issue once again. Above all, I don’t see that Task Force should be from legal background, as they don’t need to make Statute – they should develop principles, on which lawyers, like you, will write the first Statute. About jurisdiction – there is no need for a member to be a lawyer to know things for this decision. In fact, I doubt lawyers knows things like – how much is the accounting cost in Slovenia, Macedonia or Albania. 

And, out of curiosity - do you remember the first WG on Statute? What have you produce? 

Or, the partial elections are according to ToR  and you, as a lawyer, are asking to “disobey the law” and act as ToR was never written. You “blame” the remaining exe com for following the ToR. Why don’t we forget the ToR and act on whatever we feel at that moment, like: let us write a blog about two years in exe com of SEEDIG, share through Twitter and…, but not here on this list – why this community on the list needs to know about problems?

I know, I am rude and annoying old guy, telling things which you don’t like to hear... Still, it’s good to know that we can talk, and we can try to find common ground. Right now it seems to me that there is some common ground – at least we both say that there are some problems and we see that work on next meeting is crucial. So, let us start from there - to define problems and continue to work on next meeting. 

Cheers,

Dusan

From: Aleksandar Icokaev [mailto:icokaev at yahoo.com] 
Sent: 18. јануар 2020. 16:30
To: Dušan Stojičević <dusan at dukes.in.rs>
Cc: SEEDIG list <seedig at rnids.rs>
Subject: Re: [seedig] Letter to SEEDIG community

Thank for your email Dusan. 

 The fact that  I do not agree with your approach in dealing with matters,  does not mean that I will stop talking to you or start ignoring you !   On the contrary, only trough out an open and sincere discussion we can try to bring our positions / views closer, as long as iin that discussion we are not crossing  the lines...    We should not aim to reach consensus in every problem the community may face  or even worst, to deal in absolutes ... like "if you are not with us you are against us.. "    The consensus may be decision making principle for the executive body ( the exe com ) but not for the entire community ...  it is unhealthy ...  

As this group is closed email group of approved members only ,  I see it as a parliament  where the community shall openly and directly discuss...  regretfully, I see silenced discouraged community that is afraid to speak up openly even in this "closed group" ...   

Now, I can partly agree with you that my letter was to much colored by personal perspective, but as I several times repeated that is exactly my personal view that proved my intuition ( whenever there was lack of information ) to be true ,  unfortunately.   

Therefore,  I will repeat only the bulletpoints with some modification on how I see possible way out of this situation...   

If the resignations may be  perceived as obstruction and confusion in the organizational preparations for SEEDIG 6 in Moldova,  I do not see any justified reason why rushing with  the partial elections under current circumstances and the atmosphere in the community ...  

So,  ( again in personal capacity ),  once again,  I'm kindly asking and appealing to the acting executive committee to do the following actions:  

1. To Cancel the Partial elections for the exe com !  

2. To focus the Entire energy of the community for the preparations of the SEEDIG 6  and help to the recently composed  program committee in communication with the institutions of the host country Moldova  and supporting organizations. thus ensuring  consistency of SEEDIG goals and mission and continue to work the with for SEEDIG in Moldova  (Sorina and Lianna would only have supporting rolls to the program committee already formed )

 3. To set up  ( an open call for )  for volunteers for New legal entity task force composed of members of the community with a legal background  - preferably legal professionals and abandon very bad principle of "first come first served", which is counter productive. Thiis group should draft a Legal Entity statute providing a controlling mechanism, asap!   Also a possibility shpild be explored to engage a legal firm ( on a  pro bono basis ) to help in drafting the documents and collect best practices within the IG community , i.e experiences from NRI;s with functional legal structure, ( Itallian example )   the EuroDIG  statute  ( https://www.eurodig.org/fileadmin/user_upload/EuroDIG_Statutes_revision_20190620.pdf  ,  etc... 

4. A new Statute of  SEEDIG legal entity would be adopted no later than EuroDIG in Trieste or earlier and subsequently an Executive Board and Supervisory Board election or confirmation would be announced under the new Statute.

5. The new supervisory board would then,  as a first task,  look  at the financial and other aspects of the "leftovers" of SEEDIG 2018, etc ...   

Of course , my view is not the ultimate recipe ...  no individual ever had it 

Kind regards, 

AI 

On Jan 17, 2020, at 11:22, Dušan Stojičević <dusan at dukes.in.rs> wrote:

Dear all,

These kind of emails, colored by personal perspective, feelings and sometimes vaguely memories, deserve a fact check:

1.      First resignation in exe com was Iliya Bazlyankov, the host of the very first SEEDIG meeting in Sofia. Iliya supported petition.

2.      There was a decision made in exe com to form a legal entity in Serbia, Belgrade. It happened after Iliya resign, and when Sasho was elected as an exe com member.

3.      This decision was supported by the community.

4.      Then, a first WG on statute was formed – Aleksandar, You was a member.

5.      Then second resignation was made by me. I didn’t attend the meeting in Ohrid.

6.      Then third resignation was made by Aida and she didn’t attend Ohrid meeting as well.

7.      None of these resignations was motivated by jurisdiction or legal entity, as it was presented in Caf blog, simply because decision was already made.

8.      Public calls for any WG can be found in email archive, all what is formed in SEEDIG as a working structure was not formed behind the back of public or exe com members – you can like those bodies or not, but public call for them was on the list.

9.      The petition was according to ToR. Call it disgraceful or whatever - Art 7 is not just some plastic flower for decoration of ToR.

10.   First questions about the particular financial reporting for 2018. I raised more than a year ago.

11.   Petition doesn’t claim that Caf was “diligent tradesman”. In fact, it was written quite opposite in petition. This is your perspective, which no one said.

12.   Caf was not "removed”, he resigned. He had opportunity to respond and initiate a real voting according to ToR. Support for a petition doesn’t mean that people will vote for removal, after his response.

13.   “communication with several "senior" members of the community who share my opinion” – can we call this, translated in Caf’s language, like “orchestrating”, “organizing”, “disgraceful method of organizing a petition” or in your language “unprecedented act for my taste that I could not digest.” Anyway – as an engineer, I like to know facts - who they are and can they confirm their positions, if You, Aleksandar, as a lawyer, doesn’t have their POAs (in that case, can you send the POAs). – of course this is sarcastic comment, which highlights that you, Aleksandar, tolerate when you are organizing checks for your opinions, but it’s completely different when someone else is doing that.  

Aleksandar, at the end one mostly legal question, as you are a lawyer and I need advice. You surely know the basic - that ethic is not a law, and vice versa. By my opinion and knowledge, “legitimacy” is not completely right word you should use, it’s more like “credibility”. From legal point, no one ask is it legit that Sorina and Lianna can continue their work – it’s according to ToR, they are elected and that’s clear from legal point. It’s more about credibility that you ask, from ethic point of view. Am I right? If this is right, it’s about ethic, than I must ask you to comment what ethic points are missed in act of not providing the financial report for more than a year - is it enough to resign, by the moral reasons. Especially after many emails on the list, asking for it. Thanks! 

You can also fact check what I wrote, in the list archive, and I presume that this list can clear up some things that was “mixed with feelings”.

Ultimately, my understanding is that we all should base our discussion on facts, not on feelings and personal assumptions.

Heard this on SEEDIG meetings: you should fight fake news (a.k.a. propaganda) with facts not feelings!

My two cents,

Dusan

From: seedig [mailto:seedig-bounces at lists.rnids.rs] On Behalf Of Liljana Pecova via seedig
Sent: 15. јануар 2020. 12:50
To: Aleksandar Icokaev <icokaev at yahoo.com>
Cc: SEEDIG list <seedig at rnids.rs>; ichokjaev Aleksandar <ichokjaev at ddklaw.com.mk>
Subject: Re: [seedig] Letter to SEEDIG community

Dear Aleksandar, 

while reading this, with a cup of coffee, I can not say that this knocked my down form my chair. You are contradictory in many ways. While you say you do not want to bring down SEEDIG, yet your proposals are equally to diminishing all the processes and deleting whatever effort has been made by each one of us. If you have worked in such big communities and regional associations, you would probably know the feeling of transitional actions and steps that are like building blocks. By cutting and "cancel", and "resign" and whatever verbs you used, your putting a threat perception in the community. Please let the transition takes it time and do not bring down the willpower of others to make this process as painless as it can be. 

And as far I can remember you are part of the Legal group, you did not participate at all on our online meetings and mailing communication, so why don't you address these issues there, if you are trying to be constructive and want to raise the "legal knowledge" of this group? 

Thank you for being full of understanding

Liljana

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 10:43 AM Aleksandar Icokaev via seedig <seedig at lists.rnids.rs> wrote:

Dear Community,  dear friends and colleagues, 

This will be another long email.   Please take a seat, grab a cup of coffee or tea before reading.  If you don't have time or nerves now, read it latter, but read it, please ! 

Well,  I'm really trying react and behave rationally to what is happening to our,  SEEDIG community. 

I understand and perceive  IG community as a community of free-spirited, open minded people which is set on the most important principles that underpin human positive thought like altruism, mutual respect and aiding, tolerance of diversity and striving to make the most out of diversity, for the benefit of “the community”, transparency, accountability and zero tolerance of any discrimination based on gender, orientation ( political , sexyal , other ) ,  nationality, religion, age, stakeholder group,  etc. ...

I joined SEEDIG because of the cosmopolitan spirit and energy that I was fascinated with in my first contacts with the IG community, ICANN, ISOC, Global IGF., EuroDIG, Diplo Foundation ,  RIPE ....  My first ICANN meeting was Brussels 2010. I got there on my own, just to meet colleagues I was working with on a client large domain name portfolio transfer.  Infected with the unique spirit of ICANN I have applied several times and finally got selected for ICANN fellowship  for the first time in 2012!  Than 7 ICANN meetings followed I met and become friend with many wonderful people full of life and I eventually ended up in the IPC (Intellectual Property Constituency) at ICANN .  

The idea for SEEDIG was born in 2014.  I have followed and participated in the growth of this great  idea from the first planning meetings in Sofia - January 2015, the first event in May 2015 in Sofia, then the SEEDIG 2 2016 in Belgrade, the third in Ohrid in 2017, the fourth 2018 in Ljubljana, until the 5th in Bucharest, where I did not attend, for a first time ...

I don't know if Dusan Caf was acting as a “diligent tradesman” or not,   for that,  I have no enough data?  As a lawyer,  I want to see evidences and confront the facts.   But the way he was "removed" speaks in support of his claims in his resignation emails and blog ..?!

To understand the motives behind my letter,  I will try to make / offer ( my )  retrospective for 2017, 2018 and 2019 , or better to say a genesis of the current crisis... in my view. 

Already in Ohrid 2017 (SEEDIG 3) I could notice separation between the members of the community .... (this was before Caf became an exe. com member) Decisions were made in closed circles ... what was very strange for me at that time.  This was not in the spirit how our mutual mentor at ICANN Fellowship Janice Lange taught us to run the things.   This is where ( the Icann fellowship )   I met Sorina and Lianna.    Than,  out of a blue,  one of the most prominent members of the organization committee for SEEDIG 2017  simply canceled her attendance ( A. Mahmutovic )    It was never cleared up what really happened and why Aida suddenly  became a "persona non-grata" for the rest of "exe com. ”!?  Since SEEDIG was being held on Ohrid, I knew something was very wrong.. I tried to get an explanation about what happened  but was bypassed, to put it mildly ...

As announced in Ohrid , at the margins of SEEDIG , that same year, ( Saso Dimitrjoski and me ) we managed to assemble a respectable group of prominent  representatives of all stakeholders in our country and founded the IGF MKD – Internet Governance Forum for Macedonia.  The very first  National IGF in Macedonia was held in November 2017, with the great support of all recognized stakeholders at national level and support and recognition by SEEDIG, EuriDIG and of course the IGF Secretariat in Geneva!  

Somewhere at the end of the year 2017 , elections were held for the exe com. The new exe com was established.  As a  member of the election committee i can tel you that certain compromises were made in farour of gender balance and regional representation of the exe com members.  Fifth ranked Olga K accepted the rationale and did not lodge an objecton.  She remained an active, motivated member of the community and eventyally she got a respectable number of well deserved votes on the elections held two moths ago. Unforunately these elections are canceled and reinitiated. ( later on i will return to the elections )  

This success at nationa level ( fondation of the IGF MKD )   and succesful elections for SEEDIG exe com was followed by SEEDIG 4 in Ljubljana in 2018. This was very good and fruitfull meeting  in terms of program and with the institutional support of the Parliament and the Government of Slovenia… so, at least with me, enthusiasm increased.

But, Sometime at the end of 2018, the SEEDIG ambassador program was created to help increase SEEDIG's visibility at the local - national level. The idea was to give to the ambassadors "recognition" / legitimacy when approaching authorities and other stakeholders at the national level. Ambassadors should also achieve visibility of SEEDIG and improve the opportunity for fund raising - sponsorship from stakeholder – business in particular. There was an announcement / call within the community to apply for ambassador position for the country of residence of each applicant. As I was one of the initiators and big supporter of the idea for the ambassador program I applied to become SEEDIG ambassador for Macedonia, from the position of one of the founders and first coordinator of the National IGF  - IGF MKD!

The “announcement” of the selected ambassadors followed when Olga K.  signed an email she sent to the community , as SEEDIG Ambassador to Ukraine ...

While congratulating Olga for the appointment, I did asked the exe com for an information about other ambassadors seats? 

Out of 11 candidates who applied , 10 ambassadors were selected, 3 from Romania, 2 from Albania and one from Macedonia and several other from other countries… 

 This information was followed by my  memo ( objection)  asking for an explanation of  the selection criterion, because facing with the fact that out of 11 applications, the only one that was not approved to become an ambassador was me ,  was offensive in the least. My objection was smoothly rejected, and the exe com persuaded me for  (ad-hominem) attack on a young colleague from my country - Macedonia .... The fact  is that exe com gave the ambassador role to  last year student in computer sciences at  Skopje university who had his first contact with SEEDIG 4 in 2018 in Ljubljana ...  and I just said that according to the ambassador program propositions,  this position means seniority and experience, i.e  someone who can represent SEEDIG before the national institutions and stakeholders, and that this abtious young man will be great choice  for Youth IGF ( MKD ) activities , but not for the ambassador ... you can see the emails from the beginning of 2019 on this topic ( only one email in fact because the “hot”  correspondence has been transfered to direct communication with exe com only …)  ( So this is the part where I was "hit" ... )

And...  if I was somehow ready to forgive but not to forget the episode with the ambassadors program,   the "spectacle" - election for the two seats in the exe in November 2019 followed and woke up bed memories.. 

The voting results showed that Olga K and Fotjon C are the new members of the exe com.  

However, led by probably practical reasons (the upcoming seedig in Moldova), the election committee  decided to disqualify Fotjon in order to favorize  the candidate from Moldova , Marina Bzovii.

Fotjon C , filed an elaborated objection,   a well drafted legal document ! 

Unfortunately,  the Election committee was not up to the task and to that level of legal communication, so they improvised in their decision and rationale.  

I strongly believe that a healthy community would support any reasonable (and even pragmatic decision) in favor of a better organization, such as the selection of an exe com member from a country that directly organizes an annual event - if that was the motive.

My comment on the election results was that the election com. should have explained to the community that it was pragmatic to get an candidate from Moldova for exe com rather not to offer some "hard to undertand explanations related to  ToR ..."     As a valuable and constructive member of the community Im sure Fotjon would accept logical explanation ... Instead Now, we have another “disappointed”  once humble member of the community that I don't believe will run again ...

Then Dusan Caf  “emerged out the grey…”   ( his emails / blog)

Immediately after a well-coordinated action followed , I refer to the petition against Dusan C.   This petition was an absolutely unacceptable and unprecedented act for my taste that I could not digest. 

 I almost forgot ... there was also  a call for WG – Seedig legal entity.  I signed up, I am on the web site as a member, but I have not received a single email from that WG for LE so far ...  however,   an information was sent to to the community that this WG is working and will soon share the first results of its work with the SEEDIG community !! ???

All this ( above )  is my personal perspective of the situatuon in our community. 

Now, I wont to say it loud and clear in order to avoid any misunderstanding:    

I'm not against the current acting exe com Sorina and Lianna , nothing personally , nor do I want to bring down SEEDIG.   On the contrary !!!

The nature of human organizations is such that someone has to run things but at the same time be accountable to the organization.

Undoubtedly, Sorina and Lianna are the driving force of SEEDIG! My hat down!  But the amount of work vested does not entitle them to non-transparent decisions and to privatize the management process, removing people who bring quality discussion and progress sometimes with clash of concepts and ideas and replace them with ‘obedient characters’  -  Pardon my French , I cannot participate in such a community!  That  cannot be my association! 

Sorina and Lianna need to restore legitimacy and trust and change their approach in doing things trough new elections ?? !!   A wise man / woman once said :  " An apology without a change is manipulation " ! 

This change is only possible if an accountability control mechanism is put in place! All the laurels to Sorina but a control function must be established - as in e.g. a two-tier management systems of governance, a board of directors and a supervisory board. If we let this crisis to cool down ( like nothing has happened )  without “lessons  learnt” it will only be a disservice to Sorina and Lianna and SEEDIG will eventually end badly, many will leave ... and one day the leaders now,  may be faced with ungrounded accusations! 

I decided to write to you after long reconsideration and communication with several "senior" members of the community who share my opinion, some with more radical approach, some more moderate..  One is common,  we all have too much of ourselves and our time invested in IG ... and the joint effort is to heal the community, not to cover up or put under the carpet things that are not pleasant to be heard of spoken... for everyones benefit . i.e the community it self ! 

Now, In my personal opinion, unless IG, in this particular case SEEDIG is set up, as I have at first cited, as a community of free-spirited and open minded  people, which is set on the most important principles underlying human positive thought, altruism, mutual respect and aiding, tolerance of diversity and the desire to make the most of diversity of the community , transparency, accountability and zero tolerance of any discrimination on the basis of gender, orientation, nationality, religion, age, membership of a stakeholder group, etc.…  then we have already lost the“war”against fake news / disinformation / cyber crime...  and we have handed over the Internet Governance to the Dark Net - no matter how pathetic and “drama queen like” this may  sound…

Therefore, my suggestions are as follows:

1. The acting (remaining) exe com members to resign as a moral act and a way to save their own  dignity and the dignity of the entire community ! 

2. To cancel the ongoing exe com elections !  

3. To devote all energy to the SEEDIG 6 program in MD. as an act of respect to the host and supporting organizations for SEEDIG in Moldova  (Sorina and Lianna would only have technical supporting rolls to the program committee already formed )

4. To set up a New legal entity task force composed of members of the community with a legal background (not under a first come first serve - which is a bad principle) This group should draft a Legal Entity statute providing a controlling mechanism, asap ! 

5. A new Statute of the LE would be adopted no later than EuroDIG in Trieste or earlier and subsequently an Executive Board and Supervisory Board election would be announced under the new Statute.

6. The new supervisory board would then,  as a first task,  look  at the financial and other aspects of the "leftovers" of SEEDIG 2018 , for what DC has been accused of without evidence presented!

Thank you for your attention my dear friends and colleagues.  

I would be very happy to hear from you at your earliest convenience and to see the community that I cherish and where I vested 10 years of my private and professional life,   back on tracks. 

Sincerely yours, 

AI  

-- Aleksandar IchokjaevOf Counsel  DDK Attorneys at lawStr. Mirce Acev 2 / 3rd Floor1000 Skopje, Macedoniatel. ++ 389 2 3215471fax.++ 389 2 3215470e-mail: ichokjaev at ddklaw.com.mk TLA  Top-tier Legal Adriatic  N. MACEDONIA  SERBIA  CROATIA  SLOVENIA  MONTENEGRO  BOSNIA AND HERZEGOVINA This is a confidential  communication intended only for the named addressee. If you received this communication in error, please notify us and return and delete it without reading it. This e-mail may not be disclosed, copied, or distributed in any way and in any case it may not be altered or otherwise changed.

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