[seedig] On inclusiveness at SEEDIG

Sat Dec 28 02:18:22 CET 2019

Dear Zdravko,

You addressed mail directly to me… so… I will respond… thanks for repeating explanation, but obviously there is a big misunderstanding of situation now. I will try one more time:

1.      You said: …remove and silence those who point to some problems and carry-on as if nothing has happened. In my opinion this approach would weaken our initiative.

Thanks, I had couple of problems when I pointed out on accountability issues of one exe com member. As a “devil’s advocate”, which is the nickname that I got from Caf during of his intimidations on me, I was not scared or shut down. In fact, I was supported for the petition by many people here, and instead of answers, community got conspiracy theory “everyone is guilty, but not me”. So, even if he tried to silence me and gave me names, I am not silenced and in fact, as you say - I still wait for answers. Thanks for taking so much care for me, Zdravko, don’t worry - he was not able to silence me. 

2.      You said: This is not about „one guy“, it is about the ability of the community to cope with crisis and adapt to changes if needed

Indeed, this is not about one guy – it’s about one guy and financial reporting, and meddling in election process, and missed opportunity to inform the community about issues. Now we have second guy, You, who is asking to change everything upside down because of claims of first guy. But, you forgot my claims, mine was first ;) Because of “meddling in elections” one president now days was impeached, for money issues one president in S. Korea is behind bars, and for fake news – well this is the topic that we cover almost each year in SEEDIG, EuroDIG and IGF agenda. See, you are right – not only one guy, but also many, many not answered accountability issues. Community is still waiting to cope all that. 

3.      If the community would allow, I would like us all to hear from Dušan C. what his proposal is so that we could move one step further.

Community allowed him, in fact called him, to answer to the petition. He resigned, and didn’t answer to claims from petition. So, until community doesn’t get answers, it’s silly to even suggest something like you did. Maybe we can listen proposal on how to avoid work, how to not finish regular obligations like financial reporting, how to skip to inform the whole community and how to write public blog/fake news, and how to blame everyone for his own fails? Thanks, big NO from this member of the community, and you should try again with many names that Aleksandar and I suggested – I would listen to any of them rather than this ONE guy.

4.      Your suggestion still is not according to the ToR: I would suggest that the remaining members of the Exec Comm continue running the daily work as an interim committee so that the preparations for the SEEDIG#6 are not endangered. 

There is no “interim committee” defined in ToR. And let me inform you, this exe com from 3 members is still active EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE according to ToR, there are ELECTIONS (new cycle) organized according to the ToR, and there is WG on Statute for future legal entity (even Caf was inside exe com when this WG happened). What you are trying to achieve is not even logical at this moment. If Caf or You want to change the ToR, there is one good way to do that – first step - let him respond to the community on accountability issues, and then second step – let us wait for first beta version of Statute to comment and suggest changes. Who knows, maybe those guys would be better than you two writers of ToR – maybe their Statute will survive more than 2 years, how much ToR survived so far without changes. 

5.       Ultimate goal of your email – “listen to proposal of “Insider” Caf, because there is a BIG crisis and … forgive me, he is my friend”

Caf and You, you were the among writers of ToR. We all know by now that you are friends. How come you both didn’t want to change anything in ToR before petition – hint, elections failed? Failing elections was not a crisis? Where were you then to call on “everyone should resign” back then? Where were you to say: “Fotjon, don’t use gender balance – it’s disgusting and lame for any man to use this”? How come Caf was able to write blog, and not to write a suggestion to change ToR? Now, when Caf was called to answer on accountability issues, now it’s a BIG crisis in BIG conspiracy theory – if you ask me, not bigger than failed elections. Further, all aspects of Caf crisis is, unlike elections, well covered in ToR – petition, the guy resigned, new elections. Simple, all clear, seen in the past, not a big deal. There is not a single problem with ToR on that issue, nothing to fix. 

And ultimately – do you think that community will tolerate the guy who is not respecting the ToR and avoid to answers on accountability, to propose a changes of ToR? 

Zdravko, I am sure that you will understand now this right – it ain’t going to happen until he clarifies the claims from petition. He can write whatever he wants on the list –we saw conspiracy theory, fake news in blog, maybe some other genre in the future - he is free to do that as any member of the list - but he must answer to the claims.  

Cheers,

Dusan

From: seedig [mailto:seedig-bounces at lists.rnids.rs] On Behalf Of Liljana Pecova via seedig
Sent: 27. децембар 2019. 23:11
To: Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan at gmail.com>
Cc: Seedig <seedig at rnids.rs>
Subject: Re: [seedig] On inclusiveness at SEEDIG

Dear Narine,

Just one thing to reflect on this:

There was a session on SEEDIG 5 in Bucharest dedicated to people with dissabilities and how technology can help and bring them quality of life, which was very inspiring. 

So, there was representation...

But we can always improve this of course. I am fully supportive on this. Let us know if you have an additional and better idea for this Seedig 6. 

Best wishes,

Liljana

On Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 18:20 Narine Khachatryan <ms.narine.khachatryan at gmail.com <mailto:ms.narine.khachatryan at gmail.com> > wrote:

 Dear Liljana, community, 

 I respect your opinion very much, yet I see that some points raised in my letter were probably were misinterpreted, because we have never discussed them together. I wish to clear any misinterpretation or misunderstanding here.

None of the questions which I raised touched any personal participation issue. I am a frequent participant of many meetings: ICANN, EuroDIG among them. Yet, I would like other of my colleagues have the same opportunities as I have had. I put my answers under questions below:

1. On this point - I shall present my positive experience - I have involved myself more this year and offered my time and effort to various "seats". I was immeditely welcomed in all of them, without any question raised. Believe me there are plenty of seats for everyone. If you want to contribute feel free to do so. We need people on the Summary editions as well. 

Thank you, of course. But the question I raised was not about me personally, no private interest here. I have lots of responsibilities locally in my country and internationally. My question has been more general  - about the criteria of stakeholder group, representation, conflict of interest and about giving possibilities of participation to such people, groups, organisations, which could bring more diversity in terms of representation and diversify agenda to the extent possible. We constantly experience issues with representing disadvantaged, marginalized groups, etc. By the way, I have had the possibility of speaking publicly about this issue at the ICANN meeting, which is great of course.  

2. Why don't you make a poll outside the "buble" as you define it and make it as your contribution towards better SEEDIG improvement and let's speak numbers?

Yes, our organisation has dedicated enormous amount of time to the issues, frequently discussed at various IG forums 2009. By the way, I have participated in SEEDIG discussions since its formation in 2014, and have sent a number of proposals to SEEDIG organizers, both prepared by me and by young people we work with. You can go to the SEEDIG archive and many of email exchanges between us are stored there openly.      

3. I feel you on this completely and support you. But this is an issue we need to address to ICANN EURODIG and sponsors since Eurodig especially favours IGF coordinators for example and put it as a priority for travel grant. I do not see this really reliable criteria. But please let's be jointly loud on this as a community.

Thank you, dear Liljana:) but this is again misinterpreted, as I have never experienced issues with funding to participating in any of IG meetings. I am an observing member of Observing Member of EURALO, which is a Regional At-Large Organisation of ICANN, have been many times invited to ICANN meetings in the capacity of Mentor, Coach, etc. I have been a panelist and session moderator in many EuroDIGs since 2009. And I am sure that our successful cooperation with EuroDIG will continue, especially in the fields of ethics, young people, citizenship, etc. 

4. No hidden agenda. Actually as you can see there is no agenda. We are all striving on a very transparent way through this mailing list to set the agenda. 

This is very good that we together can openly speak about everything, even sensitive issues. 

Best regards, 

Narine

On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 8:15 PM Liljana Pecova <liljana.pecova at gmail.com <mailto:liljana.pecova at gmail.com> > wrote:

Dear Narine,

1. On this point - I shall present my positive experience - I have involved myself more this year and offered my time and effort to various "seats". I was immeditely welcomed in all of them, without any question raised. Believe me there are plenty of seats for everyone. If you want to contribute feel free to do so. We need people on the Summary editions as well. 

2. Why don't you make a poll outside the "buble" as you define it and make it as your contribution towards better SEEDIG improvement and let's speak numbers?

3. I feel you on this completely and support you. But this is an issue we need to address to ICANN EURODIG and sponsors since Eurodig especially favours IGF coordinators for example and put it as a priority for travel grant. I do not see this really reliable criteria. But please let's be jointly loud on this as a community.

4. No hidden agenda. Actually as you can see there is no agenda. We are all striving on a very transparent way through this mailing list to set the agenda. 

Best regards,

Liljana Pecova Ilieska

On Fri, Dec 27, 2019, 16:23 Narine Khachatryan via seedig <seedig at lists.rnids.rs <mailto:seedig at lists.rnids.rs> > wrote:

Dear Community, dear Lianna, 

I have corrected my typos and repeat the message. 

I agree fully that inclusiveness is the key element, yet in order to be able to maintain the inclusive process, perhaps, first we need to define what does inclusiveness mean.  

1. Isn’t it become a common practice that representation of various interests is achieved just by appointing the same person to all seats available, even in different regions without taking into account neither conflict of interest nor person's capabilities to maintain so many duties.  

2. When we assess how much successful have been SEEDIG efforts shouldn't we gather the feedback not only from the “bubble” that have been created: the same people participating at the same forums with same questions and same agendas, but go beyond usual circles without being afraid of listening critique, unusual opinions and unexpected questions.

3.    You said, I am quoting “I can assure that we have always encouraged and facilitated open discussions, always used every meeting opportunity be it at ICANN, IGF, EuroDIG, etc. to gather the community and ask for an advice how to make us even stronger. Isn't this the way to listen to each other? Isn't this the way for everyone to speak openly?”

Can this paragraph be understood that the same 5 members of the Executive committee always used every meeting opportunity to be at ICANN, IGF, EuroDIG. Speaking in the name of the Community, asking volunteers to contribute their free time, the same 'privileged few' used all travel and fellowship opportunities to go to meetings at all possible forums. 

3.     If hundreds of hours of work have been dedicated to an initiative which has caused such deep criticism (as described in the blog, letter, etc.) maybe a sort of “audit”, why not financial audit is required to what particularly those volunteering hours have been dedicated to and what have been achieved. 

4.     You said  “We follow the mission we all agreed upon and do our best to expand the SEEDIG activities and enhance the regional cooperation. We set milestones and follow them. And this systematic work is the key for the success we had in the last 5 years”. 

May Community be aware of which mission of SEEDIG we are speaking at this moment. Is there any hidden agenda nobody knows.

Best regards, Narine

   On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 3:50 PM Lianna Galstyan <lianna at isoc.am <mailto:lianna at isoc.am> > wrote:

Dear Zdravko, All,

I'd like to reflect on some of the raised points in previous emails.

@Zdravko, yes, we are aware of the current challenging situation in SEEDIG and this is why we want to bring it on the right track with the help of community members.

Yes, inclusiveness is the key element within our initiative and this is why we launched a new election process and invite volunteers to step in and help with it.

Yes, we had very successful meetings and not only in Ljubljana, but the latest one in Bucharest was the best so far and we had received this feedback from our supporting organizations and participants. And in every meeting we had key persons behind that - Iliya for Sofia meeting, Dusan S. for Belgrade meeting, Sasho for Ohrid meeting, Dusan C. for Ljubljana meeting, Sorina for Bucharest meeting. Across these 5 years I can say that EVERY member of the Executive Committee has his/her invaluable role in its success.

I can assure that we have always encouraged and facilitated open discussions, always used every meeting opportunity be it at ICANN, IGF, EuroDIG, etc. to gather the community and ask for an advice how to make us even stronger. Isn't this the way to listen to each other? Isn't this the way for everyone to speak openly?

As for resignation of the remaining ExCom and a practical proposal for the remaining ExCom to continue the work for the SEEDIG 6 on an interim basis, this can't work in both ways. Either the ExCom resigns and we won't have the annual meeting in 2020 (as it will take several months to go through the process Zdravko suggests), or we continue our work according to the ToR, have the partial elections to strengthen the ExCom, and continue our endeavors for the future.

I'd like to remind you all that this is a volunteer work for all of us and if the community is free to comment, to be active or to stay as an observer, we, the ExCom have commitment to move the initiative forward. We follow the mission we all agreed upon and do our best to expand the SEEDIG activities and enhance the regional cooperation. We set milestones and follow them. And this systematic work is the key for the success we had in the last 5 years. And after hundreds of hours of dedicated volunteered work we receive a proposal to resign or a proposal for Dusan to make "concrete amendments to the framework according to which we should function as a community". First of all, we have always functioned as a community and we will continue to function as a community. Second, why should Dusan only - among all other ‘insiders’ (as you put in, Zdravko) – suggest changes to the current framework? The ToR was written by the community and its development can again be tasked to the community. 

If the community wants to make amendments in the ToR, we can launch openly this process in parallel and endorse that during the annual meeting (while also keeping in mind, as Aleksandar indicated, that there is already a WG in place tasked with developing a proposal for a SEEDIG legal entity and a governing model for that entity). Meanwhile, let's follow the process of partial elections we launched and have this done smoothly and in full transparency. 

I encourage everyone to focus on the future of our initiative, on the planning of the upcoming annual meeting, on expanding our activities in our host country Moldova.

Thank you all.

Best,

Lianna

On 12/26/2019 2:03 PM, Zdravko Jukić wrote:

Dear SEEDIG friends,

let us be honest with each other, our initiative is in crisis. I will try to simplify the assessment of the situation. What I know is that SEEDIG in Ljubljana was a great success and that one of the key people responsible for that success was Dušan C. What I also know and it would be very difficult to convince me the opposite is the fact that Sorina works 24/7 for the initiative. For some reason there was a conflict in the Exec Committee that could not be resolved internally so it spilled out to the community and unfortunately beyond. 

What now? 

I still think that SEEDIG is a valuable place to facilitate regional cooperation. Because of all the good heritage collected over the period of more than five years now, we should all come together and try to resolve the conflict.

How to do that? I would suggest to do it with as many community members as possible.

As inclusiveness is one of the key values of SEEDIG, we need to get everyone back in the discussion and I would propose to ask Dušan to propose concrete amendments to the framework according to which we should function as a community. After that, we would have a broad consultation within the community on those proposals. This should last not more than one month, and the final proposed changes would need to be supported by more than (certain percentage, tbd in the process) of all the members of the community.

In order to facilitate this process I would also propose that the current remaining members of the Exec Committee resign until the new elections take place. The new elections would then be organised according to the new framework as agreed by the community.

I wish you all a happy New Year and hope that we all, as a community, come stronger out of the current situation.

Best regards,

Zdravko

--

Zdravko Jukić

Deputy Executive Director

tel: +385 1 7007 375

mobile: +385 91 722 3103

email: zdravko.jukic at hakom.hr <mailto:zdravko.jukic at hakom.hr> 

LEGAL NOTES: This e-mail (and all attached files) is confidential and is intended for the person or persons to whom it is addressed. If you have received this message by mistake, please notify the sender, and permanently remove the message and all attachments immediately, without reading, from your computer. Any transfer, copying or distribution of information contained in a third party message is prohibited and may be legally punishable. The Sender accepts no liability for any damages or loss of information that may be incurred through the use of this e-mail. The content, attitudes and opinions expressed in the message are of the author and do not necessarily represent the views of HAKOM.

PRAVNE NAPOMENE: Ova elektronička pošta (i sve priložene datoteke) je povjerljiva i namijenjena je osobi ili osobama na koje je naslovljena. Ukoliko ste primili ovu poruku greškom, molimo Vas, obavijestite pošiljatelja, a poruku i sve njene privitke odmah, bez čitanja, trajno uklonite s računala. Bilo kakvo prenošenje, kopiranje ili distribucija informacija sadržanih u poruci trećim osobama je zabranjeno i može biti zakonski kažnjivo. Pošiljatelj ne prihvaća nikakvu odgovornost za bilo kakvu štetu ili gubitak podataka do kojeg može doći korištenjem ove elektroničke pošte. Sadržaj, stavovi i mišljenja izneseni u poruci su autorovi i ne predstavljaju nužno stavove HAKOM-a.

From: seedig [mailto:seedig-bounces at lists.rnids.rs] On Behalf Of Peter Sterle
Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2019 9:15 AM
To: seedig at rnids.rs <mailto:seedig at rnids.rs> 
Subject: Re: [seedig] Launching a new election process: Call for volunteers for the Election Committee

Dear community,

the latest developments in the SEEDIG community really made me depressive. 

At a time when we are experiencing ruthless processes of commercialization and monopolization of the Internet, and on the other hand the use of the Internet to suppress personal freedoms, is a community that her priority task should be to scrutinize these developments, trapped in squabbles, nudges and deliberate sowing of discord.

Probably I should have come forward earlier when a reputable member of the community was under unjust and baseless attack. But the petition was so beyond all common sense that I assumed that reason would prevail and the matter would calm down. When another experienced and distinguished member of the community resigned from his position in executive committee, his resignation was immediately presented as something that was unrelated to the attack on other member of executive board and a petition. Again a new distortion of the facts. Unfortunately, in every community, there is a group that is prone to respond to incentives stemming from low intentions. For various reasons: inexperience, personal vendetta, tracking his or her superior, or just an inability to resist herd instinct. 

With all this said, I can understand why most active and reputable members of the international Internet community did not respond: the whole matter was from the beginning so much below every cultural level of communication that you can anticipate in advance that any, even the most well-intentioned, intervention would receive a false interpretation as an attack on a particular person.

I honestly wonder which executive committee members and why were not able to lead by example and withstand open and honest dialogue when it came to the values and the future of SEEDIG, and why they were not able to discuss and overcome the differences? Why some executive committee members have been afraid of open and honest dialogue and have resorted to such abhorrent defamation? 

With the resignation of the two prominent executive committee members, SEEDIG can not be any longer considered as a broad church Internet community but rather as an exclusive club for particular purposes. As such, I cannot give legitimacy to the existing executive committee members and the SEEDIG as a whole with my membership. Therefore, I cancel my membership in the SEEDIG community and also ask to be removed from the mailing list.

I wish you all a peaceful and happy holidays and a lot of health and success in the new year,

Peter Sterle

-- 

  <https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1o5eVQTePIs7--uJ3pQbSmbPiIflr2NTo&revid=0BxUBrwLhSV00MGt6SFhkV3ZjQTF0a1k1YkhqTy91dVVCRkt3PQ> 

Narine Khachatryan | Executive Director 

STEM Society|Safer Internet Armenia 

Yerevan, Armenia

Tel:         +374 11 735421

Mob:     +374 55 137907

 <http://www.safe.am/> www.safe.am  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.rnids.rs/pipermail/seedig/attachments/20191228/359ed5b9/attachment.htm>